Death Rock vs Horror Punk vs Goth

It fascinates me what is and isn't considered goth, where boundaries begin and end and who gets co-opted by what groups and how the scene changes.

So much of goth these days is industro-goth and can't easily be traced to old-school goth without doing some back and forth looping through the early 80s bands.

For instance, I know that Joy Division has since been co-opted by goth; in a way even by post-punk, as they were very much a "punk" band (I forget which member said Martin Hannet had "turned us into Pink motherfucking Floyd).

An interesting thing I've read about Joy Division is that they kinda spoiled it for everyone; that when you had songs as dark as that and your singer kills himself, it made Bauhaus and the Cure seem pretenderish to the music community of the time (then again, Bauhaus got nothing but hate in their own day from the music media community).

The Damned eventually went goth stylistically in 80 (even though Vanian had been vamping it up since the beginning) with the Black Album by bringing a very Doorsy sound to their music, but they were pretty straight ahead punk with their early stuff.

And the Dead Boys are a good example of the band that could be easily co-opted under the death rock/goth thing, especially since Bators eventually went all out goth rock when he teamed up with ex-Damned guitarist Brian James for their Lords of the New Church goth-punk supergroup outing. Then again, the Dead Boys were without a doubt one of the ugliest bunch of dudes in the New York scene and I could easily see Cheetah Chrome kicking some dudes ass for calling them a goth band.

One of the most noticeable aspects of classic "goth rock" bands is the baritone (or somewhat similarly ranged) singer. Though there are few exceptions to this, the deep voice one sees in bands like the Damned, Joy Division, Siiiii, Bauhaus, Crispy Ambulance, B.F.G, Sisters of Mercy, and countless others, is one of the distinctive characteristics of the most well recognized contributors to the genre.

Sorry, I'm going in circles now...

So, where do you considere the boundaries of Horror Punk, Death Rock, Goth Rock, Post-Punk?

(I also posit that the Cramps were one of the best goth bands ever :D )

horror punk is keeping in tact and staying true to its dowop/oldies origins incorporating rockabilly and a little pop punk.

gothhas become totally confused and torn apart by all of its subgenres, gothic, gothic rock, gothic metal, symphonic metal, darkwave etc etc.

deathrock is true goth and the last frontier of real underground music.

post-punk- some bands are extremely obscure and experimental using funk, dub and punk. some more catchy and mainstream using beatlesque (shoegaze, powerpop, punk) rock.

horropunk- very melodic and harmonious. ramones and misfits laid the ground work here.

goth- umbrella term. too many different versions now from industrial to pop music.

deathrock- dark, eerie, sometimes very dissonant sometimes melodic always abrasive and controversial in concept. usually encompasses all of said genre's.

http://www.last.fm/group/California+Deathrock i've found some real obscure bands through starting this group. check out the radio, if i missed some join and tell me.

Gothic Metal and Symphonic Metal are not subgenres of Goth. And it's not an umbrella term, too many people simply don't know what it is.

and the cramps are rockabilly not goth by the way